Revolution in Ukraine

[Bronshtein]

I'm sorry if I 'bug' you. I'm not trying to.

I'm not saying I know more than you - I'm saying I know that neither of us - (nor anyone else) can know what the people of Ukraine wanted. Pictures, videos graphic testimony are all persuasive but they argue from the very specific to the ridiculously general.

I'm prepared to accept Yanukovych is as corrupt as anyone who walked the earth - if someone can prove it in a court of law. Until then it smacks of media slurs and western manipulation. That doesn't mean I don't think Russia lies - it just means in this case we are more susceptible to western lies because of the nature of the conduit being used.

'We' - means the West. We aren't a monolith of course but we fought a Cold War together. Its still a loose alliance of shared interests - mostly about access to and control of markets now.

I don't think the referendum in Crimea is legitimate - but its very hard to give the Western response too much credence when they are supporting a bunch of people in Kiev who have just overthrown an elected President.

[mcfonz]

Please, just go and look into the recent history.

You'd understand more if you did. And also just give up the corrupt western media shit - every single media source will have a slant of some sort or another that reflects the perspective of those they are delivering to - and whilst we're at it also the 'we the west' stuff too.

Although often allies, the EU does not always side with the US and when it does it does not always agree with US methods and policies.

They do not have to be lumped together to suit an argument.

[Bronshtein]

Please, just go and look into the recent history.

Of what? The world? Communism? Russia's relations with Ukraine? The Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth? Bogdan Hmelnitskii? Khruschev's brainstorm in 1954? Yuschenko's testimony against Tymoshenko? The funding for the Orange Revolution? Which bit of history would you like?

You'd understand more if you did.

More what? I have a pretty good handle on the Cold war and the post cold war relations in eastern Europe thanks

And also just give up the corrupt western media shit

No - if you embraced the idea you might find the world makes a lot more sense

- every single media source will have a slant of some sort

exactly - so don't ignore it if you know it happens.

or another that reflects the perspective of those they are delivering to - and whilst we're at it also the 'we the west' stuff too.

No. It works and it's a fact

Although often allies, the EU does not always side with the US and when it does it does not always agree with US methods and policies.

Never said 'always' - something you introduced but in this case they certainly do.

They do not have to be lumped together to suit an argument.

I lump them together when they are together and leave them apart when they are separate. I'm not suggesting there was some grand unified conspiracy between the US and the EU but their respective policies coincided and US covert support for dissident groups was already in place. The EU wasn't tough enough for the State Dept for sure (check the infamous telephone call for an example of US interference and short temper with the EU), but their policies dovetailed for once. Probably not as well as they would have liked because the EU would probably have preferred a longer game but once the EU pulled the plug and Yanukovych jumped, the State Dept got gung ho and went for it. There were elements in Independence Square not under any control by Washington or Europe but the US could have pulled the plug on money and support for those it did fund and the protests would have been manageable for everyone. There would have been no deaths and diplomacy could have started again. So no not a unified 'we' strategy but certainly an 'us' (the west) against 'them' Ukrainian communists and Russia opportunism.

[mcfonz]

So you're not biased but think the European media is shit and more slanted in view to other media's. You go on about the CIA (US) and then slate the 'west' for covert tops and funding.

If you have a good understanding you'd know that Russia has had both of these in Ukraine for some time.

You take such an extreme position that every argument you put forward can be thrown back at you and your defence is you are neutral.

[Bronshtein]

So you're not biased but think the European media is shit and more slanted in view to other media's. You go on about the CIA (US) and then slate the 'west' for covert tops and funding.

If you have a good understanding you'd know that Russia has had both of these in Ukraine for some time.

You take such an extreme position that every argument you put forward can be thrown back at you and your defence is you are neutral.

In order:

Yes

Very probably - but unless you are seeing Russian orders to that effect or western (no apology) int sources you are using the media reportage of Ukrainian accusations - hardly unbiased.

No. my position is pro western.

I want us to be better than we are. I don't want the 'bogey man' - Russian, Communist, Islamist, to be used to force us into stupid actions that undermine democracy and threaten war over a mistaken right wing coup that we helped engineer. I put the one side of the argument because it rarely gets an airing and the other side is all over the media. Unless people realise there is another side to all this we are likely to go gung ho into situations (like Iraq) and if we are lucky we can repent at leisure over the body bags and the profit reports of global oil and gas companies.

[mcfonz]

Yeah. Still no substance and just accusations.

[Goldwyrm]

I want us to be better than we are. I don't want the 'bogey man' - Russian, Communist, Islamist, to be used to force us into stupid actions that undermine democracy and threaten war over a mistaken right wing coup that we helped engineer. I put the one side of the argument because it rarely gets an airing and the other side is all over the media. Unless people realise there is another side to all this we are likely to go gung ho into situations (like Iraq) and if we are lucky we can repent at leisure over the body bags and the profit reports of global oil and gas companies.

+1

You're still a commie cunt. And the Russian Leadership is still worse than the West's Leadership, at the moment, maybe. On that thought- Anyone tallying civilian casualties by government & policy since the Cold War ended? Because at the end of the day, dead people of any nationality could have been living their lives otherwise.

[mcfonz]

When I say no substance I mean the only person taking anything for granted is you.

You make out as if people on here are just slurping missfed info like sheep. People like Duff are far from sheep. I have no issue whether someone is lefty, righty or any other political stance so long as it is within the grounds of decency.

As for 'representing' the other side - bollocks. Name the sources you use. At least provide some substance other than just to take an opposite stance. Sometimes there is no blance or the reason behind it being so unbalanced is that the weight of fact or truth outways the rubbish.

So we'll start here. Only the Russians and the runaway president claim that there was a coup. What is the evidence to support this? The reported (both European and Russian medias) run up to the 'coup' had the riot police ordered to clear Independence Square, forcibly of all protestors. When this failed and turned a bit sour, the order was given for snipers to fire. I'm not going to say indiscriminatly at this point because those facts are not available.

After that the police declined to follow further orders as did the ordinary military. Parliament then voted overwelmingly to remove the president from power.

Whilst I agree that the mobilisation of right wing Ukrainians may well have been hugely backed by the USA is there any evidence that a coup actually happened? To me it looks like poor decisions and choices by the president led to a loss in faith and support of even those most close to him. Democratically speaking most countries have a system for removing their leader in cases of emergancy like this. I have no idea whether it was constitutional - do you?

It's also worth noting that he had history, found to be voted in using voting fraud and then failed at a re-run. In another election his main political adversary was poisened and almost killed.

Russia and no doubtedly some Western powers have been involved in the influence of the Ukraine. But looking at recent history, it's pretty fair to say that whilst they do business with Russia they are more EU leaning bar perhaps Crimea which may well be where a lot of the issues stem from.

Taking the opposite view does not make it the right view, nor the most informed or balanced. You need to be objective to be balanced. I don't believe or trust any media outlets which is why I comb the net when interested in something to try and make sense of it.

[Bronshtein]

Yeah. Still no substance and just accusations.

Bloody Hell Pot calling kettle!

Anyway I've given you lots of examples - lots of reasons - pictures, you tube telephone intercept of US officials planning who would run the country after they've got rid of Yanukovych - all I get off you is regurgitated tabloid pap without the attribution

[mcfonz]

Nope. You get questions you dont want to answer.

Like I said before you rule out European press for bias and tell us all that the sources you present are more bias. When were those telephone intercepts? Who made them and who has released them.

When being objective you simply cannot apply one rule to one side and not the other.

Again, where is the evidence of a coup? Did the military storm parliament? Did the protesters defeat the police and storm parliament? Was the president forcably removed?

To me a coup is more akin to what happened in Crimea. Its not one man steadily running out of allies with his own parliament voting no confidence and the police and military refusing to protect him any longer.

I am quite willing to accept one if the evidence is there to be had - and from an objective viewpoint.

I don't need substance, I'm not challenging the legitamacy of the European media and press along with the USA and failing to apply the same logic to your own 'sources'.