Frothers Unite! UK

pete wrote:

Doremi Fasol Latido wrote:

Hastati wrote:
If I was GW I would start to move to basic pre-painted (two or three colours for example) or primed figures for rank and file troops that can be played with out of the box or tarted up and only have specials/characters as unpainted figures. Hell, I'd even offer those as pre-paints/primed and make the unpainted ones a special order from Forge World. I think their main problem is that they still see themselves as a hobby/model maker instead of a toy maker.

Usual caveats, just my personal opinion.

But does a hobby/model maker have to evolve into an all out toy maker to stay in business? They must make a lot of money off the back of all those paints.

yup, and they'd still sell the same amounts to everybody to paint their characters, wouldn't they...

I don't see how that works if you've got fewer models that need painting on the market and if you're selling a PPP product to a customer base that's less inclined to want to paint anyway.

I wonder just how much their customer base has declined. The move to finecast has certainly lost them some, meaning they've had to raise prices more to allow the remaining fools (I mean customers) to pick up the slack.

Super Humphrey wrote:

pete wrote:pre-paints IS the way it will go...

Do you really think so?
Surely it would depend on price.

Surely it would depend on profit-margins.

I can easily see GW going down the pre-paint route if they could make the same amounts or more (of profit) than they do at present

Dags wrote:

Super Humphrey wrote:Surely it would depend on price.

Surely it would depend on profit-margins.

Yeah, but in this case do the two not add up to more or less the same thing? Increased profit margin will mean increased price. And if fewer people are paying the current price I can't see them likely to pay a higher price.

It will come down to whether two people buying a product at price x is worth more profit than one person buying a product at price x+y. But if the latter does hold sway there is the risk of diminishing market and your customer base becoming unstable.

I'd be very surprised to hear there was much of a market for pre-paints, certainly in GW's market. Who's buying and gaming with GW products? It's predominantly teenage boys I would guess (please correct me if I'm wrong - I've not looked at GW's customer demographic). And they are funded by parents, which means the pocket money will be buying less (of the more expensive pre-paints), or maybe the pocket money may even be reduced. The number of adult GW gamers (who would have the money to spend on pre-painst) I reckon is probably only a small part of their market.

Doremi Fasol Latido wrote:
I don't see how that works if you've got fewer models that need painting on the market and if you're selling a PPP product to a customer base that's less inclined to want to paint anyway.

Just to be clear, you make a product that is either pre-primed in the primary colour like the Dust Tactics stuff (so green orcs, blue Eldar, etc.) or with blocked in 2-3 colours (primary colour, flesh, weapon). Think more basic than the AT43 stuff. Pre-paints don't have to be more expensive. You market it as ready to play out of the box, but much more fun to tart it up with GW paints and decals. You widen your catchment for customers (the gamer vice the painter) without necessarily alienating the hobbyist if you offer "hobby" kit versions from FW (who you can charge more for the unpainted version!). In addition, I would make some specialist figures only available as a hobby kit version. You want it, you have to paint it. Also, some of the gamers become hobbyists over time as they want to personalise their collection and collect all the extra kit.

Let's face it, wargaming is a difficult hobby to get into and stay in. Painting 150 figures is a daunting task to a 14 year old. This makes it more attractive. What kid wouldn't want a Space Marine army that he could put on the table and play immediately with and not be grey plastic? GW could offer the full monty in terms of ready to play figures, terrain, etc. Also, they should have rules and army apps for purchase that you can use to build, organise, and then use your army in a game. I don't understand their 20th century approach to the game in terms of physical rulebooks. You should be able to play an entire 40K or WH game using a tablet or smartphone (army builder, rules, dice).

My biggest source of amazement about GW is not their prices, its their limited ambition.

Super Humphrey wrote: Who's buying and gaming with GW products? It's predominantly teenage boys I would guess (please correct me if I'm wrong - I've not looked at GW's customer demographic). And they are funded by parents, which means the pocket money will be buying less (of the more expensive pre-paints), or maybe the pocket money may even be reduced. The number of adult GW gamers (who would have the money to spend on pre-painst) I reckon is probably only a small part of their market.

The vast majority of GW figures (like every other type of wargames figure) never sees a lick of paint (which is why so many kids drop out after a year or two). Also, there is no reason why a line of pre-paints will be more expensive than current figures. The price is totally dependent on manufacturing costs, profit target, and demand. Pre-paints will expand, not contract, their market in my opinion.

Fantasy Warriors 2 - 5 Orc Raiders
Metal - painted
Price (incl VAT): £12.25

http://www.em4miniatures.com/acatalog/F ... _sets.html




Elfsera 1 - The Adventurers

Ref: Elf1

Price (incl VAT): £12.25

We also experienced some decline in sales through independent stockists. We view these as short-term issues and expect to see growth return in both channels. We continue with our store opening programme (27 stores opened, 20 close din the period) secure in the knowledge that our one man model allows us to ensure new openings are profitable.

I always find some of the wording interesting in stuff like this. They have clamped down on independent stockists over the last few years, implementing new rules for them to meet and slashing the trade discount they give. It is no real surprise that some stockists have either reduced their stock or ceased to stock them full stop. Locally this has contributed to the closure of at least one stockist I can think of in the last couple of years.

No surprise then that their sales through independent stockists have fallen. Strangely though I find that sort of conflicts with their aim to reduce operating costs. The best way to do that would be to support independent stockists more, especially in locations where they feel is a good location for a store.

Hastati wrote:Also, they should have rules and army apps for purchase that you can use to build, organise, and then use your army in a game. I don't understand their 20th century approach to the game in terms of physical rulebooks. You should be able to play an entire 40K or WH game using a tablet or smartphone (army builder, rules, dice).

My biggest source of amazement about GW is not their prices, its their limited ambition.

Good point that. Especially, as you say, given GW's target group. To be honest it's something just about all the big players in the hobby should be thinking about.

Hastati wrote:The price is totally dependent on manufacturing costs, profit target, and demand. Pre-paints will expand, not contract, their market in my opinion.

Yeah, these processes could see the price of pre-paints controlled. But GW have a poor reputation of level-headed prices. But, yeah, pre-paints could certainly become a solid auxiliary to other sales, I just remain to be convinced that it will be a market winner.

Everything released for 8th edition WFB and 6th edition WH40k has been available digitally - in some cases before the printed version. The Tyranids and Space Marines books even have a (rudimentary) collection manager in the iBooks versions.

Price and platform-dependence aside, the iBooks versions of the books are some of the best digital gaming supplements I've seen; better than the non-Apple epub versions, and miles ahead of the companies still fucking about with PDF editions.