Enormous Toronto Mayor Admits Crack Smoking

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Re: Enormous Toronto Mayor Admits Crack Smoking

Postby Duff » Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:42 pm

I'm giving up on quotes for this thread. Bastard things.

Broney, not one of the Arab states had agreed to the UN resolution, it was another case of foreign colonialism. The Arab response was entirely predictable and expected, the Zionists knew exactly what would happen. So unless you can establish a better moral or ethical argument to justify of their actions in walloping the hornets nest than "the Brits said we could", complaining about getting stung is a bit rich.

Good point about the US and UK, I was thinking more in terms of Middle East countries rather than outsiders. The tragedy of Syria in the last year does put Israel into second place, you're quite right. Still, Israel's track record in recent decades is hardly anything to be proud of.

Just want to be left alone thanks. Or else. Works better. Learned off Europeans.


And how has that worked out for Israel? Over 1100 Israelis killed just between 2000 and 2005 (three times that number of Palestinians). The only place in the world with a large Jewish population that is actually at risk is Israel for heavens sake.

The wording you use gives the impression that you still believe the world thinks the same as it did in the 30s. For almost the first time in the history of the Jewish people the majority of the world is on their side, but the Zionists act as if Henry Ford and Stalin are still directing policy, and that Einsatzgruppen are waiting in the wings, ready to storm in at the first opportunity. Yes, much of the Islamic world is still tragically backward in its anti-Semitism (and so much else unfortunately), but that would be of little concern to the Jewish diaspora if they hadn't decided to forcibly take a large chunk of land from Muslims to be their holy land. A piece of land that also happened to contain the third holiest place in all of Islam.
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Re: Enormous Toronto Mayor Admits Crack Smoking

Postby Duff » Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:55 pm

Cosmotiger wrote:Um, I was told there would be pictures of boobs.


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Re: Enormous Toronto Mayor Admits Crack Smoking

Postby Ajsalium » Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:11 pm

I'm afraid those boobs are obvious fakes.

Personally I prefer natural ones.
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Re: Enormous Toronto Mayor Admits Crack Smoking

Postby Citizen Sade » Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:23 am

Duff wrote: ... but that would be of little concern to the Jewish diaspora if they hadn't decided to forcibly take a large chunk of land from Muslims to be their holy land. A piece of land that also happened to contain the third holiest place in all of Islam.

Rather holy to the Christians too, yet none of them are trying to kill Jews over it. Funny that. I wonder why ...
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Re: Enormous Toronto Mayor Admits Crack Smoking

Postby Bronshtein » Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:04 am

daBish: Yes we are, (a mass of contradictions) and you're right there are a lot of what Americans would call 'liberal' and I would call 'lefty' Jews about (guilty - yes and law school as well (bloody stereotype)) who are tough on criticism of Israel. I don't find it right wing to support Israel though - I'm much more a socialist Zionist/kibbutznic than a Haredim (who mostly won't fight for what they believe in and are partly why we got shafted for so long in Europe - especially the 30s/40s).

Duff: I don't think Israel is perfect but its difficult being a lefty who is pro-Israel these days. The left has been seduced by a long line of 'chic' terrorist 'socialist' Palestinians from the 60s onwards. It was cool to be PLO (Black September generally not so cool, but 'its all Israel's fault for starting it'). And the Arabs have been very savvy at PR, (just like the IRA) whereas Israel (and the Unionists) not so clever. So when I hear a lot of people whose general politics I agree with praising what I see as murderers and genocidal maniacs I feel the need to offset a little of the propaganda. There are so many lies and clichés that are accepted as fact amongst Europeans now that I do see a return to the 30s unless we fight it. Anti-Semitism is very big on the continent, funnily enough amongst right wing neo Nazis and Muslim extremists alike. Its not that unusual in Britain either unfortunately and getting more socially acceptable.

I would genuinely like to see Israel call the Palestinians on the 67 borders and go back to them. But I don't live in Tel Aviv or Ashkelon or Qiryat Shemona, right next to where the suicide bombers and then the tanks would be coming over the borders. So I understand the fear that says 'never again' even as I wish it weren't so.

As for the Third Holiest site in Islam - could I just point out, atheist though I am, it is the Holiest site in Judaism, and was there at least several hundred years (well over a thousand if Solomon really did build his) before the Muslims turned up?
Anyway, L'chaim guys.
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Re: Enormous Toronto Mayor Admits Crack Smoking

Postby Duff » Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:28 pm

Citizen Sade wrote:
Duff wrote: ... but that would be of little concern to the Jewish diaspora if they hadn't decided to forcibly take a large chunk of land from Muslims to be their holy land. A piece of land that also happened to contain the third holiest place in all of Islam.

Rather holy to the Christians too, yet none of them are trying to kill Jews over it. Funny that. I wonder why ...


Because they weren't living there perhaps? What reaction would Israelis have got from Catholics if Vatican City had been chosen as the location for the new Jewish State, even if the Brits and the Yanks had said it was ok? And do you think they would have forgotten about it and left them alone by now?
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Re: Enormous Toronto Mayor Admits Crack Smoking

Postby Duff » Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:01 pm

Bronshtein wrote:daBish: Yes we are, (a mass of contradictions) and you're right there are a lot of what Americans would call 'liberal' and I would call 'lefty' Jews about (guilty - yes and law school as well (bloody stereotype)) who are tough on criticism of Israel. I don't find it right wing to support Israel though - I'm much more a socialist Zionist/kibbutznic than a Haredim (who mostly won't fight for what they believe in and are partly why we got shafted for so long in Europe - especially the 30s/40s).

Duff: I don't think Israel is perfect but its difficult being a lefty who is pro-Israel these days. The left has been seduced by a long line of 'chic' terrorist 'socialist' Palestinians from the 60s onwards. It was cool to be PLO (Black September generally not so cool, but 'its all Israel's fault for starting it'). And the Arabs have been very savvy at PR, (just like the IRA) whereas Israel (and the Unionists) not so clever. So when I hear a lot of people whose general politics I agree with praising what I see as murderers and genocidal maniacs I feel the need to offset a little of the propaganda. There are so many lies and clichés that are accepted as fact amongst Europeans now that I do see a return to the 30s unless we fight it. Anti-Semitism is very big on the continent, funnily enough amongst right wing neo Nazis and Muslim extremists alike. Its not that unusual in Britain either unfortunately and getting more socially acceptable.

I would genuinely like to see Israel call the Palestinians on the 67 borders and go back to them. But I don't live in Tel Aviv or Ashkelon or Qiryat Shemona, right next to where the suicide bombers and then the tanks would be coming over the borders. So I understand the fear that says 'never again' even as I wish it weren't so.

As for the Third Holiest site in Islam - could I just point out, atheist though I am, it is the Holiest site in Judaism, and was there at least several hundred years (well over a thousand if Solomon really did build his) before the Muslims turned up?
Anyway, L'chaim guys.


I can understand how conflicted you might feel on the issue Broney, and really do sympathise with the "Never again" mentality. I personally have no truck with any praise aimed at Hamas, Hezbollah or the various regimes surrounding Israel. But that isn't what the discussion (rather than the thread) is about (and I'm very relieved and impressed that it has largely remained a discussion, not an over heated argument). I used to have (well still have really) so much admiration for Israel, but its actions since the 80s and its refusal to acknowledge its own role in the creation of the situation, has destroyed so much of the good will felt among many on the left and centre.

I'd also strongly argue that anti Semitism is not becoming more socially accepted, in Britain or on the Continent, though a quick check has shown a worrying increase in anti-Semitic attacks across Europe in the last 15 years, largely by militant Muslims. I would say that among the majority of the population it has become less acceptable however, we just have an even more belligerent minority. I have to ask though, would this be the case without Israel? It gets back to the point about zionism actually making life harder for Jewish people, a case of the Law of Unforeseen Circumstances coming into play.
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Re: Enormous Toronto Mayor Admits Crack Smoking

Postby Citizen Sade » Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:35 pm

Duff wrote:
Citizen Sade wrote:
Duff wrote: ... but that would be of little concern to the Jewish diaspora if they hadn't decided to forcibly take a large chunk of land from Muslims to be their holy land. A piece of land that also happened to contain the third holiest place in all of Islam.

Rather holy to the Christians too, yet none of them are trying to kill Jews over it. Funny that. I wonder why ...


Because they weren't living there perhaps?

There were and are comparatively small numbers of Christians living in what are now Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Are they responsible for a comparatively small number of the terrorist attacks?
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Re: Enormous Toronto Mayor Admits Crack Smoking

Postby Duff » Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:45 pm

Citizen Sade wrote:There were and are comparatively small numbers of Christians living in what are now Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Are they responsible for a comparatively small number of the terrorist attacks?


Oh fuck off Matt, that's specious reasoning and you know it.
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Re: Enormous Toronto Mayor Admits Crack Smoking

Postby Bronshtein » Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:47 pm

Duff wrote:I'd also strongly argue that anti Semitism is not becoming more socially accepted, in Britain or on the Continent, though a quick check has shown a worrying increase in anti-Semitic attacks across Europe in the last 15 years, largely by militant Muslims. I would say that among the majority of the population it has become less acceptable however, we just have an even more belligerent minority. I have to ask though, would this be the case without Israel? It gets back to the point about zionism actually making life harder for Jewish people, a case of the Law of Unforeseen Circumstances coming into play.

I don't know is the honest answer.
I think there was a horror at the Shoa (which fair enough, Zionists used - I can't blame them/us) but my impression is that most of that has worn off - especially in countries other than Germany.
I am secular so I don't observe dietary or Shabbat laws, I don't look particularly Jewish, and I 'pass' so I get to hear a lot of asides amongst people who think they are 'safe' from the 'pc' brigade. I used to buy printer ink off a Scottish guy who told me how the New World Order was run by 'our large nosed friends'. He trotted out every myth (and some truths with his own twist) about the involvement of Jews in recent and not so recent European history. Eventually we got to the 'myth' of the Shoa, which apparently a) didn't happen at all, b) was only an accident of disease in labour camps, c) was created by the Rothschilds (of whom Hitler was apparently an illegitimate son)in order to get Israel established (you'd have thought if Rothschild had that much power he could have done something a bit simpler than arranging the murder of 6 million of us in order to get Israel (minus Jerusalem) back wouldn't you?) and d) was only fair given what they(we) were trying to do to the Gentiles.

Would this be better without Israel? I don't know but I don't think so.
I think Israel needs a bit of proper leadership. Bibi isn't Golda Meir and he certainly isn't Arik Sharon. But this is something Israel needs to do itself. I'm not Israeli but, to quote a phrase, some of my best friends are :) and I get the same feeling when I hear the constant carping about how evil Israel is because she has robustly defended herself as they do.

Which doesn't mean we shouldn't have compassion and understanding for the Palestinians and try to put a secular, democratic Palestinian state in place. Many of the Palestinians in Israel do work within the Israeli state not as 'uncle Toms' or 'Dhimmi' in reverse and if we could manage to get the majority on both sides to realise there has to be some sort of rapprochement so much the better. (I'm still going to shout every time someone casually says Israel is responsible for everything bad in the region though :D )
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