Enormous Toronto Mayor Admits Crack Smoking

[Duff]

Fucking thing, no matter how many times I edit the bastard, it still gets the quotes wrong.

[Bronshtein]

Right, difficult to know where to begin here. I am reserving the right to contradict what I say here in the future, because I'm just back from the pub.

Fair enough

The '47 plan was a proposal, not a mandate.

We're both wrong - my fault initially. It was more than a proposal and less than a mandate- Resolution 181 of the General Assembly.

'We will sweep them into the sea.' Sound familiar?

Yes, it does. Though in the particular circumstances, it reminds me more of "We Shall Fight them on the Beaches" than anything the Nazis came out with.

What about all the rest - 'it will be a war of elimination', 'we shall eradicate Zionism', 'continue fighting until the Zionists are annihilated.' Very Churchillian. And don't forget the actions which speak louder than words.

Pity the Knesset didn't extended that right to Palestinian refugees who might want to return and claim the property they left behind when they fled in fear for their lives.

1953 offer of return (admittedly with conditions) the Arab countries holding Palestinian refugees rejected the offer and refused to allow returns because it tacitly acknowledged the existence of Israel.

just as any non Muslim living in a country established as a Muslim homeland would be, or a non Christian in a Christian homeland. Personally I disagree with any sort of state based on an ethnic or religious identity, it can't be truly secular and will be discriminatory by its very nature.

For fucks sake... It ISN'T based on religious identity! Its a secular fucking democracy.

Israel IS NOT a secular democracy.

How come Orthodox Jews keep getting arrested for complaining about 'religious dress laws'- which aren't state laws - being flouted in the street then? How come you can buy bacon and shellfish? How come a hundred and one things that disprove this bizarre obsession? How come you can be a Muslim MP, an Atheist MP? You can be a Hindu or a Buddhist (not 'recognised' but accepted as are all faiths and none.)

Also, being born Jewish in the C21 is to have won the ethnic Lotto. Jews are the richest, best educated, longest living and healthiest ethnic group on the planet now.

Do you still think 'Jewish' is a 'race' or an 'ethnicity'? Anyone can be a Jew - Orthodox Judaism says you have to have a Jewish mother. You can convert - even most Orthodox will allow it (they hate it...but). There are lots of Jewish ethnicities.

Funnily enough, this was a question I had to ask on here several years ago. I was always confused by the religion/race issue with Judaism. I couldn't see why it was a race. It took a Jewish member to inform me that being Jewish was both. That to be a true Jew (rather than a liberal "not really a Jew" convert) you had to be descended through the matriarchal line. Either way, what I said applies, there is no group on the planet that scores as highly as "Jewish".

The point is how do you define your 'ethnic group' to get these stats? And the other Jewish member and I are going to have to disagree about who is a Jew. Which might give everyone pause to think about the relevance or otherwise of 'ethnicity' and 'race'.

If Israel wants security it has to grow up and stop acting like a hard done by problem child, lashing out at all perceived threats, no matter how horrific it's history. In other words, it has to embrace compromise.

What about Arabs? Can they compromise a little please? Or do we have to compromise Israel right off the map and into the sea?

[Duff]

What about all the rest - 'it will be a war of elimination', 'we shall eradicate Zionism', 'continue fighting until the Zionists are annihilated.' Very Churchillian. And don't forget the actions which speak louder than words.

All of which were a response to the initial Zionist actions. You're moaning about a bear growling at you after you hit it with a big stick. Israel has to accept that it was the main instigator of its own situation. If Zionists wanted a homeland to be safe in, they picked the worse possible place on the planet to found it.

1953 offer of return (admittedly with conditions) the Arab countries holding Palestinian refugees rejected the offer and refused to allow returns because it tacitly acknowledged the existence of Israel.

Because the Arab states were all playing at brinksmanship, just like Israel. No-one comes out of this looking good, Israel included. I can't find any references to the offer you mention, the only occurrence of note I can find for 1953 was the massacre of Arab women and children by the IDF at Qibya.

How come Orthodox Jews keep getting arrested for complaining about 'religious dress laws'- which aren't state laws - being flouted in the street then? How come you can buy bacon and shellfish? How come a hundred and one things that disprove this bizarre obsession? How come you can be a Muslim MP, an Atheist MP? You can be a Hindu or a Buddhist (not 'recognised' but accepted as are all faiths and none.)

It may be a very tolerant non secular democracy, but it is not secular. A govt. that pays state benefits to religious students, that's political parties are predominantly formed around religious groupings, that's core, stated aim is the protection of a single religious group within its borders, is not truly secular.

The point is how do you define your 'ethnic group' to get these stats? And the other Jewish member and I are going to have to disagree about who is a Jew. Which might give everyone pause to think about the relevance or otherwise of 'ethnicity' and 'race'.

Were you born to a Jewish mother? Yes? You're Jewish.

What about Arabs? Can they compromise a little please? Or do we have to compromise Israel right off the map and into the sea?

Of course the Arab countries have to compromise, though which Arab neighbours still insist on the destruction of Israel? Jordan? Nope. Egypt? Nope. Lebanon? Yep, though considering the repeated invasions by Israel (however justified) and the mass civilian deaths these actions caused, you can hardly expect them to have any love for you. Syria? Yep. Saudi Arabia? Nope, they've offered full recognition of Israel and its right to exist if the Palestinian territories are given back. So two Arab countries with a border, one of which is busy destroying itself, the other almost not a country anymore, after decades of Israeli political and military actions are the only local threats, who are both massively outclassed by the IDF.

You've repeatedly used the same form of counter on this thread, "yeah, but the Arabs are just as bad" as if that is some form of defence. If Israel wants to claim the moral high ground it needs to act better than its enemies, better than it has over the last 30 years. During the last few decades it has become the greatest purveyor of death and destruction in the region by a long way. It might treat its own citizens better than its neighbours, but it treats its neighbours like a bully. When you respond to rocks thrown by teenagers with gunfire, small arms fire with tanks, you don't get to play the good guy.

If Israel wants to ensure its future, it needs to pull back to the '67 borders, it needs to dismantle the illegal Jewish settlements and it needs to actively help implement the creation of a Palestinian state, instead of constantly impeding it.

[Duff]

What the fuck is going on with the quotes? I edit out the extra quote boxes to get it looking right, then they get added back when I press submit.

[Ajsalium]

This is Frothers, for fuck's sake. Did you really expect it to work properly?

[da_bish]

I'd be interested to know more about this 1953 offer of return -- interesting timing as at the time the Israelis were very annoyed that the Eisenhower administration was intervening in Israeli affairs such as water use of the Jordan. (The Americans eventually learned to stop arguing and just hand over the money.)

What's more interesting to me than any Israeli offer of return is the Land Acquisition Law that was passed in that same year, which expropriated Arab villages and turned them over to Jewish farming settlements. So, even assuming this offer of return was legimiate, what would the Arabs have been returning to?

Interesting to know that you're such a big booster of Israel, Bronshtein. Brought a real smile to my face to read all of your defences of the country. Are you Jewish?

[Bronshtein]

All of which were a response to the initial Zionist actions.

In response to the UN Resolution - before Israel was founded, and then they started attacking Jews. You mean initial Zionist actions like breathing?

If Zionists wanted a homeland to be safe in, they picked the worse possible place on the planet to found it.

It was all the Brits and the UN offered.

I can't find any references to the offer you mention,

My fault, sorry. Part of implementation of the Palestinian Conciliation Commission of '49 happened in '53. The offer to allow 100,000 Palestinians to return was made as part of that Commission's negotiations in '49 and rejected by the Arabs.

It may be a very tolerant non secular democracy, but it is not secular. A govt. that pays state benefits to religious students, that's political parties are predominantly formed around religious groupings, that's core, stated aim is the protection of a single religious group within its borders, is not truly secular.

It's secular. By your reasoning Britain is an Abrahamic Monarchy as it funds Christian, Jewish and Muslim Faith schools. Jesus. In fact Britain is more of a Religious State as the Head of State is Head of the Established Church. Israel is far more secular than Britain.

Were you born to a Jewish mother? Yes? You're Jewish.

As it happens -yes. But who collects stats on that basis? What happens if the father was Jewish and the mother not? By normal Judaic law the child isn't. But by 'racial theory' or 'ethnicity'? Enough to get the life bonuses you claim? Certainly enough to get gassed I admit... but anything else? How many generations does that count for? You know this all sounds very familiar somehow...

Of course the Arab countries have to compromise, though which Arab neighbours still insist on the destruction of Israel?

Better question - how many of the Arab league countries recognise Israel's existence? Egypt, Jordan, Mauritania...any more? And we know how Iran feels - although not of course Arab.

You've repeatedly used the same form of counter on this thread, "yeah, but the Arabs are just as bad" as if that is some form of defence.

No. My counter is 'Arabs are a fucking lot worse'.

If Israel wants to claim the moral high ground it needs to act better than its enemies, better than it has over the last 30 years.

Don't want the moral high ground. Tried that. Got murdered. Just want to be left alone thanks. Or else. Works better. Learned off Europeans.

During the last few decades it has become the greatest purveyor of death and destruction in the region by a long way.

!!!!!!!!!! Care to do the maths on Syria? On the US and UK in Iraq?

It might treat its own citizens better than its neighbours, but it treats its neighbours like a bully. When you respond to rocks thrown by teenagers with gunfire, small arms fire with tanks, you don't get to play the good guy.

Wargamers like to play at 'equal points'. When you are surrounded by people trying to eliminate you, you don't wait for them to get as strong as you - after all they only outnumber us by about 50:1. What's that good old German phrase? 'Klockern, nicht kleckern'. Rocks kill, Hamas rockets kill, suicide bombers kill, small arms kill.

If Israel wants to ensure its future, it needs to pull back to the '67 borders, it needs to dismantle the illegal Jewish settlements and it needs to actively help implement the creation of a Palestinian state, instead of constantly impeding it.

Now actually I might agree with that. Then lets see all the bleeding heart anti-Semites line up behind the next demand against Israel. I don't mean you Duff. But a lot of the propaganda the Palestinians enjoy in Europe is a result of 70 years of repressed anti-Semitism. I think Israel should pull back to the 67 borders. But only if the UK, France and the USA agree to nuke the first Muslim state that causes an Israeli to get a cold.

[Bronshtein]

I'd be interested to know more about this 1953 offer of return -- interesting timing as at the time the Israelis were very annoyed that the Eisenhower administration was intervening in Israeli affairs such as water use of the Jordan. (The Americans eventually learned to stop arguing and just hand over the money.)

See above - my fuck up. The offer was part of the Palestine Conciliation Commission negotiations in '49 - I mixed up the implementation year with the offer year.

What's more interesting to me than any Israeli offer of return is the Land Acquisition Law that was passed in that same year, which expropriated Arab villages and turned them over to Jewish farming settlements. So, even assuming this offer of return was legimiate, what would the Arabs have been returning to?

Interesting to know that you're such a big booster of Israel, Bronshtein. Brought a real smile to my face to read all of your defences of the country. Are you Jewish?

Oh no! I've been rumbled. It's a fair cop guv.

[da_bish]

You'll be pleased to know that you have something in common with many American Jews, who are often very liberal (the term used here anyway) but turn pretty hard to the Right when it comes to support of Israel. (That said many of the most passionate critics of Israel in the states are also Jewish, such as Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein, although it must also be said they are in a very distinct minority.)

I had a prof in law school who had worked as an attorney for the ADL and frequently testified before Congress to challenge bills or government practices that might infringe on the First Amendment (the part of the US Constitution which prevents the establishment of religion by government or restrictions on worship). But of course the ADL is also a huge supporter of Israel -- a country established in order to benefit one religion over others and functions that way (window dressing aside).

So as I watched her before Congress talking about this or that law which might put a Christmas tree up in a public square, I just had to smile.

Then again I guess we're all a bundle of contradictions aren't we?

[Cosmotiger]

Um, I was told there would be pictures of boobs.