Frothers Unite! UK

Bronshtein wrote:

Levied Troop wrote:Vote responsibly and hold people to account for the laws they break, including political assassination. Hello Israel.

Well that got dragged in from left field didn't it?
Hello USA, Hello Russia, Hello China, Hello UK (yeah don't look so shocked - we just keep it quiet better than most)Hello Palestine (admittedly Abu Nidal was a bit inept with Schlomo Argov but you can't legislate for sloppiness)in fact Hello most of the world. Why pick on Israel?

And Skipp - if you mean Arafat, the Israelis were way down the queue of people who wanted Arafat gone - most of his own party/gang wanted him out of the way - and that's before we get to Hammas.

Hamas, using polonium poisoning? It was Israel, it would have been far too expensive/difficult for his other enemies to kill him using that method.

And hidden political assassinations by the UK and the US? In this day and age? Right, and the CIA had a sniper on the Grassy Knoll as well. Give me a break. China? Maybe, they have enough control on their media to possibly get away with it, but I'm unaware of any Chinese dissidents or anti Chinese SE Asian politicians suffering suspicious "accidents" or succumbing to sudden undiagnosed illnesses. We know Russia has done it at least twice, which is no great surprise under Putin, and Israel hardly bothers to even try covering up the huge number of political assassinations it has carried out. But the US or the UK? Any examples of political figures anywhere in the world who have died suspiciously in the last 20 years where either the US or the UK are likely suspects?

You have very thin skin when it comes to criticism about Israel Broney. Why is that?

Duff wrote:Hamas, using polonium poisoning? It was Israel, it would have been far too expensive/difficult for his other enemies to kill him using that method.

And hidden political assassinations by the UK and the US? In this day and age? Right, and the CIA had a sniper on the Grassy Knoll as well. Give me a break. China? Maybe, they have enough control on their media to possibly get away with it, but I'm unaware of any Chinese dissidents or anti Chinese SE Asian politicians suffering suspicious "accidents" or succumbing to sudden undiagnosed illnesses. We know Russia has done it at least twice, which is no great surprise under Putin, and Israel hardly bothers to even try covering up the huge number of political assassinations it has carried out. But the US or the UK? Any examples of political figures anywhere in the world who have died suspiciously in the last 20 years where either the US or the UK are likely suspects?

Depends - How about Osama Bin Laden? Where was the arrest and trial? He was murdered. Maybe he had it coming but it sure didn't look like 'due process' to me. How about all those drone attacks? The UK doesn't do it like that, and maybe it hasn't connived recently but we used to deport Algerian Islamic Party members back to various Maghreb countries who did the job for us. Come to that we weren't slow to help 'rendition'. We kidnapped and illegally transported people to torture and death around the world. In the last ten years

You have very thin skin when it comes to criticism about Israel Broney. Why is that?

Cos I'm a Jew? Mazel Tov.

Duff wrote:Hamas, using polonium poisoning? It was Israel, it would have been far too expensive/difficult for his other enemies to kill him using that method.

Why would Israel kill Arafat? He was a has been. At worst he was a good counter to Hamas. Who funds Hamas? Iran - lots of nuclear materials around in Iran. Half (probably more) of what was left of the PLO hated Arafat more than anyone - lots of contacts with old Sov Cold War guys - lots of Polonium about. I admit the one thing that would point to Israel is - it worked and nobody seems to have poisoned themselves.
Polonium is a bit recherché for Mossad. They tend to like things that go bang or actually blow someone's head off. Like you say, not generally too bothered with pretending it didn't happen.

Bronshtein wrote:How about Osama Bin Laden?

Hardly a hidden political assassination, that was an open, targeted killing of a declared national enemy. Hardly comparable to Arrafat or Yushchenko.

Bronshtein wrote: We kidnapped and illegally transported people to torture and death around the world.

You'll certainly get no arguments from me in favour of rendition, but that falls far short of your accusation of political assassination.

Bronshtein wrote:

Duff wrote:You have very thin skin when it comes to criticism about Israel Broney. Why is that?

Cos I'm a Jew? Mazel Tov.

And? Do Judaism and Zionism equate to the same thing for you then? I was born Catholic but feel no desire to defend Italy or Vatican City as a result. Neither do I have the reflex action, which you seem to have, to automatically defend my countries of cultural or geographical birth against any and all accusations of foul deed. Nor do I equate the many criminal actions of the state of Israel with Jewish people in general, while also not thinking that those actions are the be all and end all of what the nation of Israel is, or that it shouldn't exist.

Forget the grassy knoll! Isn't the latest theory that the "second shooter" was a Secret Service bodyguard riding in the car behind? Probably an accidental discharge, but maybe not...

The Masked Frother wrote:Forget the grassy knoll! Isn't the latest theory that the "second shooter" was a Secret Service bodyguard riding in the car behind? Probably an accidental discharge, but maybe not...

I think that is giving way too broad a definition for the term "theory".

Duff wrote:And? Do Judaism and Zionism equate to the same thing for you then? I was born Catholic but feel no desire to defend Italy or Vatican City as a result. Neither do I have the reflex action, which you seem to have, to automatically defend my countries of cultural or geographical birth against any and all accusations of foul deed. Nor do I equate the many criminal actions of the state of Israel with Jewish people in general, while also not thinking that those actions are the be all and end all of what the nation of Israel is, or that it shouldn't exist.

No.
It wasn't reflex - it just seems an unlikely action against a useless old has-been Rabin signed a deal with in 93 and who has been hated by his 'own side' as a result ever since.
Neither do I.
Glad to hear it.
LT has already said he just picked it as a current example and it could have been Uzbekistan - no harm no foul from my point of view then, although I think unlikely given what I said above.
I don't equate Judaism with Zionism - I'm non-observant, I'm an atheist. But I am a Zionist. It isn't a bad thing. It isn't evil. All it means is support for a Jewish culture and state in the historic land of Israel. Nothing else. I support a secular Israel open to people of all faiths and none - the status quo. And if everyone would stop trying to exterminate us for a bit we'd be very happy to live in peace with everyone thank you.

Bronshtein wrote:I don't equate Judaism with Zionism - I'm non-observant, I'm an atheist. But I am a Zionist. It isn't a bad thing. It isn't evil. All it means is support for a Jewish culture and state in the historic land of Israel. Nothing else. I support a secular Israel open to people of all faiths and none - the status quo. And if everyone would stop trying to exterminate us for a bit we'd be very happy to live in peace with everyone thank you.

Top post, makes your position very clear.

Out of interest, as an atheist how do you square your lack of faith with Zionism, since the principle justification for Israel's location and existence is religious? If you don't base your support for Israel on biblical prophecy and divine mandate, then surely you are supporting an unwanted occupation and subjugation of an indigenous population by a largely immigrant minority? Would you expect a statement from a white South African* 20 years ago "And if everyone would stop trying to exterminate us for a bit we'd be very happy to live in peace with everyone thank you." to be accepted by a member of the ANC, even if the Africaans people had suffered centuries of persecution and pogroms?

*I am not equating Israel with the Aparthied regime in SA (though I don't think they are a million miles apart), just illustrating the principle involved with a more stark example.

Duff wrote:

Bronshtein wrote:I don't equate Judaism with Zionism - I'm non-observant, I'm an atheist. But I am a Zionist. It isn't a bad thing. It isn't evil. All it means is support for a Jewish culture and state in the historic land of Israel. Nothing else. I support a secular Israel open to people of all faiths and none - the status quo. And if everyone would stop trying to exterminate us for a bit we'd be very happy to live in peace with everyone thank you.

Top post, makes your position very clear.

Out of interest, as an atheist how do you square your lack of faith with Zionism, since the principle justification for Israel's location and existence is religious? If you don't base your support for Israel on biblical prophecy and divine mandate, then surely you are supporting an unwanted occupation and subjugation of an indigenous population by a largely immigrant minority? Would you expect a statement from a white South African* 20 years ago "And if everyone would stop trying to exterminate us for a bit we'd be very happy to live in peace with everyone thank you." to be accepted by a member of the ANC, even if the Africaans people had suffered centuries of persecution and pogroms?

*I am not equating Israel with the Aparthied regime in SA (though I don't think they are a million miles apart), just illustrating the principle involved with a more stark example.

Two top posts.